In the list below, where does the "poetic" stop and "non-poetic" start?
Let me not to the marriage of true minds... (Shakespeare) |
New Year’s first snow -- ah -- (Basho) |
A POOR torn heart, a tattered heart... (Dickinson) |
it is at moments after i have dreamed... (e.e. cummings) |
And so she woke up Woke up from where she was lyin' still. (U2) |
 (calligraphy artists) |
 (Beethoven) |
 (Adams) |
 (Mondrian) |
 (Woodson) |
 (Mucha) |
17 comments:
I think it could be argued that there's an element of the "poetic" to all of the above. I'd like to know how people would answer if, added to the above were Miller Lite Super Bowl ads, Flarf. Gucci bags, Reed Hall, DFW airport, and OutKast, Jay-Z, Okkervil River and Hold Steady lyrics.
I want to say two conflicting things, but I'll only say one of them: song lyrics ain't poetry and I can prove it (if you have like 15 weeks).
But the question posed was about the "poetic" not whether or not the examples were "poetry."
Also what about song lyrics that appropriate verse? The Hold Steady, and O.R. use Berryman, etc. And why have people written academic papers about Bob Dylan's poetics?
*Notice, I'm not telling you how I feel about it.
And hip hop can sample a horn lick from Miles Davis. That don't make it jazz. I'm not talking about which is better or worse. I'm just insisting on some basic differences.
You do make a good point, though, that we're talking about what has "poetic" qualities. Bob Dylan's lyrics do have "poetic" qualities certainly. And "The Family Guy" employs some interesting narrative techniques. When I watch an episode, though, I don't think "Boy, this is a great novel."
And, to be honest, this isn't how I feel about it either. Most categories have shelf lives shorter than sushi.
You are exactly, right, and have affirmed my point by not answering the question I brought up. The question that began the post was about the "poetric," not poetry, but you answered as if the question was about "poetry." So the jazz and Family guy, though funny, are moot. I would be interested to know the "basic differences" you speak of, when it comes to "poetry" because that is the invisible question you're response seems to be hinting at.
There is an element of the "poetic" in all of the examples. Are all of them poetry. No.
I apologize for my spelling. I'm typing fast as the eggs burn.
Well, I'm not going to define the "basic differences" because 1) I'm having too much fun talking around the issue, and 2) talking around the issue may help me better get at the differences than I would be able to directly right now.
Part of my (childish?) insistence on the "basic differences" is an anxiety that as a small Mom & Pop operation, poetry runs the risk of being subsumed entirely into more commercially viable art forms (even abstract painting, to my mind, is more commercially viable). I don't care if people borrow from poetry (that's actually a good thing), but please please please don't say that the borrower become a poet in the process.
Fun is good. And I agree, the orbit one takes around and around an idea helps clarify it. May your funitude live long.
I do have some beef with your (childish?) insistence on basic differences—not on the idea of basic differences, because you’re not going there yet, but this anxiety you speak of. Calling poetry a “Mom & Pop” operation, and fearing that it will be “subsumed entirely into more commercially viable art forms” seems insincere and elitist, and reinforces an unhealthy (in my meager opinion) system of binaries.
Well, I did say I was being potentially childish. And what's more childish than thinking in black and white?
And the real problem may be the inaccuracy of my metaphor. The growth of AWP shows that poetry writing is FAR from being a Mom & Pop operation. And poetry is fairly plucky and knows how to operate well without getting too much public notice. Does poetry work better on the margins?
No.
Okay, succinct boy. You've been good at challenging what I've been sayin'. Now's your turn to wax out a larger defense. Or at least to blather a bit.
I’m not sure what you’d like me to wax on and wax off about? I answered the questions posed, and asked you to explain yours, but you dodged. But if you want me to ramble, I’ll ramble.
All of the examples in the question that began the post have an element of the poetic to them. They are not all poetry. You say song lyrics are not poetry, and you can prove it (but it will take weeks). I would like you to prove it.
I think the anxiety you speak of (poetry as a small Mom & Pop operation, risking being subsumed entirely into more commercially viable art forms) masks fear and elitism, a stance, that unveiled is the one that pushes people away from verse. Inherent in that fear is the value judgment that says “Oh, you poor plumber, I am so much better than you, because I, I am a poet!”
Poetry has never been a mom & pop operation—and now as part of the academy, the expansiveness of writing programs, explosion of indie presses and publishing and the dissemination of poetry (and all writing) it never will be.
Even if it resides in the margins, it has legitimacy. It would be fantastic if poetry became a more commercially viable art form. Would there be problems with this? Of course. There are always problems with everything. A fuse blows and the lights go out. The car’s muffler falls off. A kid skins a knee on the playground. Big deal—it’s called evolution. Literature must evolve, or it will be dragged forward by the neck scruff by TIME.
Poetry works wherever people can make good poetry. Whether it’s in the margins, prison like Etheridge Knight, or in the ivory tower (like many poets today). The place of poetry in the world is not the most important question to be asking. The energy used in asking that question is better used to spread the poetic. Think manure spreader. First and foremost, one should be concerned with the poem, with writing good poems. I’m not saying the place of poetry shouldn’t be asked, but it shouldn’t be first on the list.
Good writing will find a way into the world—whether it comes from the margins, or the center—it is about paying attention to the sacredness of the word.
I make no such assumption that poets are better than plumbers. We would live longer without poets than without plumbers.
Yes, we need good manure to spread before we worry about the means to spread it. That said, it's not going to spread itself.
And I think you might be trying to have your cupcakes and eat them too with the word "sacredness." I know what you mean, but it also suggests other problematic binaries (sacred/profane) and a potential for elitism too (poet as priest). Not what you're probably thinking about, but...
This dead horse seems pretty beat up. Shall we launch off on a new topic?
Sacred=Profane in my book--and yeah, the last thing I think about is the poet as priest. I'm thinking of the power of the word, the power of the imagination, in all its varieties--subtle, over-the-top, all of them. I think of the pipe-clearing evocativeness of language. I think of poet as verb plumber.
I will take the cupcakes, and the cake and a jumbo bag of Hot Tamales.
I wish someone else would talk to us. Ha.
I do think there are some good questions in here--but sure--let's flay the horse and make a new hat.
All I'm hearing is crickets and a lot of reverb. Hello? Is this thing on?
And we do have some questions here, but they're going pushed waayyy down in the thread. Let's bring up closer to daylight.
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